Uh, gee...I think you have mistaken us for someone else.

Its not "Letterboxers: Good. Geocachers: Evil."

There are quite a few forthright citizens and respectful folks who geocache.

I think we can all get along if you try.

Thanks

tabulator32 (geocacher first, and a letterboxer as well)


On Monday, August 29, 2005, at 11:48PM, Team Safari wrote:

>
UPDATE NOTE: MOVED There has been a geocache planted nearby. I don't think that the placer had any idea a letterbox is here. So far, my letterbox (DD) has not been disrespected. I have not had my box disturbed by cachers but it has been mentioned in their logs, so I'm afraid it might just be a matter of time before someone takes the stamp or trashes the box. Sad to say, but seems the way things are going. Just a few people can make a lot look bad. I cache also, and want to be respectful of responsible cachers and boxers alike. If you want to sign in to the cache, please don't mention this mystery box's name or new location, and set a nice example of peaceful coexistence.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

this is the quote that was said "Just a few people can
make a lot look bad". How does that becomes
letterboxers=good and geocacers=bad?

--- Kurt Copeland wrote:

> Uh, gee...I think you have mistaken us for someone
> else.
>
> Its not "Letterboxers: Good. Geocachers: Evil."
>
> There are quite a few forthright citizens and
> respectful folks who geocache.
>
> I think we can all get along if you try.
>
> Thanks
>
> tabulator32 (geocacher first, and a letterboxer as
> well)
>
>
> On Monday, August 29, 2005, at 11:48PM, Team Safari
> wrote:
>
> >
> UPDATE NOTE: MOVED There has been a geocache planted
> nearby. I don't think that the placer had any idea a
> letterbox is here. So far, my letterbox (DD) has not
> been disrespected. I have not had my box disturbed
> by cachers but it has been mentioned in their logs,
> so I'm afraid it might just be a matter of time
> before someone takes the stamp or trashes the box.
> Sad to say, but seems the way things are going. Just
> a few people can make a lot look bad. I cache also,
> and want to be respectful of responsible cachers and
> boxers alike. If you want to sign in to the cache,
> please don't mention this mystery box's name or new
> location, and set a nice example of peaceful
> coexistence.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


__________________________________________________
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This is the quote I was looking at...

>There has been a geocache planted
> nearby. I don't think that the placer had any idea a
> letterbox is here. So far, my letterbox (DD) has not
> been disrespected. I have not had my box disturbed
> by cachers but it has been mentioned in their logs,
> so I'm afraid it might just be a matter of time
> before someone takes the stamp or trashes the box.

On Tuesday, August 30, 2005, at 08:19AM, Phillip Dusing wrote:

>
><>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't thing anyone has made the distinction of good and evil that you mention.
The clear fact is that a siginificant number of letterboxes, mine included, have had
stamps removed and replaced with trinkets.

I'm sure that this is done by newbie cachers who don't yet know about letterboxes.
All my letterboxes hidden in the last year are clearly marked "this is not a
geocache" for this reason. I don't believe geocachers or letterboxers are the ones
who trash letterboxes. I believe that folks who happen on them by accident are the
guilty party. Let's call them the 'evil' ones!

Funhog

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Copeland wrote:
> Uh, gee...I think you have mistaken us for someone else.
>
> Its not "Letterboxers: Good. Geocachers: Evil."
>
> There are quite a few forthright citizens and respectful folks who geocache.

Hi, tabulator 32!

Who have I mistaken you for? I don't understand. I never said or even implied "Letterboxers: good; Geocachers: evil." I don't even see how you could infer that if you read what I wrote.

I think that you should read what I wrote again. If I wasn't clear, I meant to say that I don't think that anyone deliberately planted close to my box, and I clearly stated that my letterbox has not been disrespected. I simply moved it to protect it from the few that obviously ARE out there who take stamps or leave the box out either because they just don't know any better or they have a callous disregard for letterboxes. Honest, they are out there. Are there letterboxers that leave boxes exposed or in shambles? Yes, there are. But I'd wager that most don't take stamps and don't bother to solve mystery clues to do so, and I'd wager that someone mistaking a letterbox for a geocache could easily leave something in trade for a stamp (especially when the two boxes are 10-12' apart). These are the "few people who make a lot look bad." Did you think that was a slam against you or other cachers? Other boxers? Did you think I was pointing a finger at you? If so, contact me off list and we can take this private.

Odds are, a box and a cache in close proximity is a problem sooner or later, especially with new people out there all the time unaware of the existence of the other pastime and how the boxes function. Someone found that cache and stamped in with signature stamps, and didn't write a message about "Gee, where's your box stamp?" or make any indication that they understood it was a cache they had found, not a LB. In my experience as a cacher, although it's limited, cachers don't normally just stamp a character into a log. There's a very good chance that they were looking for a letterbox. It's also quite possible that a cacher looking for a cache will mistake a letterbox for such and take the stamp in trade. I think this happens more often than you might think. And even though you or anyone else might not want to admit it, it happens. It's all about numbers, probabilty, proximity, and human nature.

Yes, I agree with you. I think we can all get along if we try. That's why I thought I was being the bigger person and just politely moved my box of about 2 years to put space between the two. And I posted the change and the reason why I did so here, because that sure seems like the logical thing to do.

I also had put a note in the cache log saying "I bet you didn't realize there was already a letterbox planted here." Does that sound hostile?

Maybe I need a course in effective communication. I thought I was being quite reasonable and kind. Maybe it was the word "trashed" that bothered you. Probably not the most diplomatic of terms, I admit. But that's how it feels when your stamp is gone and the letterbox is full of unrelated, often broken items. Or worse, the box is left there open with a note in the log, "Where's the cache?" That really has happened. Trashed = ruined. I should have thought about not using "trashed" because some people hostile to geocaching call it "geotrashing.' Mea culpa if the word hit a nerve.

Safari Woman
----- Original Message -----
From: Kurt Copeland
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] (RI) Mystery Box UPDATE


Uh, gee...I think you have mistaken us for someone else.

Its not "Letterboxers: Good. Geocachers: Evil."

There are quite a few forthright citizens and respectful folks who geocache.

I think we can all get along if you try.

Thanks

tabulator32 (geocacher first, and a letterboxer as well)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Or, just a stretch of the imagination...there are other people in the world than cachers and letterboxers. It could have just been some kid who happened to find it.

OR...why hasn't it registered with anyone, it is CONCEIVABLE, just POSSIBLE...

it may have been another letterboxer.

Either way, I believe it is rude to simply assume it had to have been a cacher which caused any damage (or, in this case...damage that has yet to even occur).



On Tuesday, August 30, 2005, at 11:18AM, funhog1 wrote:

>
><>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think it was simply the implication, since there was now a cache in close proximity, there would undoubtedly be some damage to your letterbox...as I inferred from the line:

> so I'm afraid it might just be a matter of time
> before someone takes the stamp or trashes the box.

Anyway, I should learn from this dialogue that there are geocachers who are unaware of letterboxing and may mistake stamps for travelbugs. I'll make sure all of my stamps have "NOT A TB - DO NOT REMOVE" clearly marked on it.

I'm sorry if I became defensive concerning what I presumed to be your perception of cachers in general.

tabulator32

On Tuesday, August 30, 2005, at 11:20AM, Team Safari wrote:

>
><>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's really difficult as a geocacher and letterboxer to read remarks
that suggest geocachers are disrespectful. Even though geocachers have
not trashed your LB you come to the conclusion that it is "just a
matter of time". To me, it's like saying "Your child may not steal
candy but now that a candy store has moved into the neighborhood, it's
just a matter of time".

None of my letterboxes have had their hand-carved stamps
removed/traded by geocachers and I don't think that it's just a matter
of time. I give a fairly detailed description on my cache/LB hybrid
pages about what letterboxing is and how cachers can play the game,
perhaps that's why my stamps haven't been traded and I have never
found geostash in my LBs.

I do expect that every once in a while I'll make a bad hide or the
letterbox may be accidently left out in the open to be discovered and
possibly taken, most likely by a non-cacher or non-LBer (this has
happened to 6 of my 25 hides and I'm pretty sure it happened because I
hid them poorly). I am quite willing to make a new box and stamp (I
keep copies of the image for this purpose) or archive the LB if I
placed it in a bad spot. It's part of the nature of hiding something
in public places for others to find.

Had you not moved your LB I would have suggested that you post a note
on the geocache page that explains you are the letterbox owner and you
are worried that your stamp might be exchanged for geostash/trinkets.
Explain what letterboxing is, this will educate geocachers in your
area and perhaps even get them on board, you may encourage cachers to
join the fun.

R of JARS

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Team Safari"
wrote:
> UPDATE NOTE: MOVED There has been a geocache planted nearby. I don't
think that the placer had any idea a letterbox is here. So far, my
letterbox (DD) has not been disrespected. I have not had my box
disturbed by cachers but it has been mentioned in their logs, so I'm
afraid it might just be a matter of time before someone takes the
stamp or trashes the box. Sad to say, but seems the way things are
going. Just a few people can make a lot look bad. I cache also, and
want to be respectful of responsible cachers and boxers alike. If you
want to sign in to the cache, please don't mention this mystery box's
name or new location, and set a nice example of peaceful coexistence.

>
> I won't post the name or waypoint of the geocache box, because you
can figure that all out for yourself if you have "decyphered" my
clues.
>
> THANKS!
>
> Mary of Team Safari
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, R of JARS,

Thanks for your input.

At first I didn't think that your analogy about the candy store was a good one, but I can work with it, I guess. Yes, kids steal candy and candy store operators need to be watchful , pro-active, pre-emptive. So the proprietor does what she can to minimize the damage. You may be insulted by things under guard or lock and key because you think I'm assuming that people (maybe you) steal. As the proprietor, I don't care if you think it's wrong of me to acknowledge that it happens. You might be insulted because you think I'm saying YOUR kid steals. As a store owner, I just protect myself as best I can. So if you come into the store, and see that all the candy is up out of reach and you have to ask me for the things I've placed behind the counter because they have been disappearing in other stores, what do you do? Do you just deal with it? Do you just figure things are moved because I was concerned that I may suffer a loss? Or do you try to convince me that I'm being disrespectful of good people who don't steal ? Just rhetorical questions.

I will not blame myself if I get robbed, and think that I must have placed something incorrectly in the first place so it's probably my fault they went missing. If someone stole the candy, they stole it. I did not ask for it. I will change the position of the items if it seems reasonable to me. And I would probably do so _before a loss_ if I knew of other stores were experiencing losses.

I will not assume that everyone who comes into the store is a thief. But I'll assume that anyone could be a potential thief and do what I can to minimize losses. The more traffic, the greater the potential. The things most often stolen should have limited access. And yes, it's probably just a matter of time before something gets stolen.

I will not hang up lots of signs about shoplifting being a crime, because little kids can't read and literate thieves just don't care.

But this analogy doesn't do much for me, anyway, because my letterbox is not an open business. It's a mystery box that people need to make an effort to solve. It's not a store with a sign saying "Come on in." To suggest that I tell all about it on the caching site is absurd to me. It's a mystery box in a place that gets virtually no foot traffic past a stone wall. Possibly a weary traveler has gone there to relieve a full bladder, but I've seen no evidence of that. But geocaching is big around here, and now the traffic will be greatly increased by the placement of a geocache. Numbers increase, and of those numbers many are new. I think the number of people in that spot this past month equals or exceeds the number that have solved the mystery and found the box since I planted it. There is actually a path being created now to the cache by this traffic. And the fact that my box states it's a letterbox is no protection. Can other boxers leave a box exposed or take a stamp? Yes. But honestly, I'm not as worried about a letterboxed leaving my box exposed or taking the stamp. Why? Because the people who find mystery boxes are usually seasoned, intelligent boxers who have made some effort to figure out some clues. It takes more effort and than just getting straightforward directions or coordinates and a map. By virtue of the fact that a boxer has to navigate the LbNA site to specifically look for mysteries, read the clues, do the research, think a little bit harder, and get their own map, I tend to expect that they know more than a little about letterboxing than someone who is looking in a radius of woods for a box of some sort. They have invested time and energy into finding a letterbox. They generally have a vested interest. They appreciate the fun of the mystery. They want to leave their mark so others can read their comments. They tend to treat a box as they would their own. They are not finding it by mistake. Call me crazy, but I'm not so worried about them as I am about an influx of geocaching traffic.

I'd like to think that the letterbox information in/on the box is enough. When I first started letterboxing, I found geocaches before I knew what they were, so I found out what I could about geocaching. I asked people. I looked on the internet.I didn't even sign into the first few because I didn't want to be rude. I wasn't sure if a accidental finder should log in. I never thought it was anyone's job but mine to find out more about the game. There's plenty of info on line. I would never have taken a single thing until I felt I understood the trading thing. But I have this idea that I'm pretty average, so I kind of think others would do the same, behave the same way. Try not to commit a faux pas, try to be nice. (Probably not realistic, right?) But people new to these hunting games may not be so careful and may not have any idea that they have the wrong box. So to protect my box a little better from having an "accident" I moved it. And accidents do happen! I know of people who have suffered lost or stolen stamps or boxes. The risk increases with traffic, with time, and increases when boxes of different types are too close together. That's my opinion, and anyone can agree or disagree. I don't think anything will change my opinion aside from .. no more missing stamps or boxes.

It's unfortunate that my choosing to move the box and stating why on the national LB board seems to have offended people. That was not my intention. But I make no apology for my feelings or reasons. Did I suggest that only geocachers were disrespectful? That all geocachers were disrespectful? NO. I, in fact, stated that my box has not been disrespected, and asked that we hopefully can peacefully coexist. I also geocache. I do not act disrespectfully towards anyone's hidden treasures. I wish everyone were that way. Most people are.

I'm glad that you have lost only 6 out of 25 hides but I would be much happier to hear that you had lost none. It's nice to have an upbeat attitude. If it were me, I'm not sure I would too happy that more than a fifth of my creations had bitten the dust. I think I'd be a little POd and much more protective of them.

Anyway, I feel like I've spent too much time on this. Anyone is welcome to contact me in private email if you want to talk about this, but I doubt you'd change my opinion.

I was nervous and concerned. I moved the box. Case closed. Hopefully both my box and the geocache live a long time.

Cheers!

Safari Woman


----- Original Message -----
From: ontario_cacher
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:56 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Re: (RI) Mystery Box UPDATE


It's really difficult as a geocacher and letterboxer to read remarks
that suggest geocachers are disrespectful. Even though geocachers have
not trashed your LB you come to the conclusion that it is "just a
matter of time". To me, it's like saying "Your child may not steal
candy but now that a candy store has moved into the neighborhood, it's
just a matter of time".



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When reading your first message on the topic, it DID seem as though you
were indicating the "bad few" who were ruining it all for the others
was, in fact, geocachers. Whether it was intended or just my
interpretation, as it seems to be now, all of this is done. If you
are, also, a registered geocacher as you just mentioned, then that last
comment doesn't seem to be an issue.

Anyway, Happy boxing/caching!

tabulator32



On Wednesday, August 31, 2005, at 01:10 AM, Team Safari wrote:

> It's unfortunate that my choosing to move the box and stating why on
> the national LB board seems to have offended people. That was not my
> intention. But I make no apology for my feelings or reasons. Did I
> suggest that only geocachers were disrespectful? That all geocachers
> were disrespectful? NO. I, in fact, stated that my box has not been
> disrespected, and asked that we hopefully can peacefully coexist. I
> also geocache. I do not act disrespectfully towards anyone's hidden
> treasures. I wish everyone were that way. Most people are.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mary--

This is what worked for me: My Green Cathedral LB has been in place
since last November. Early this summer a ammo can geocache
appeared, just one tree away. We've had trade items left in the LB,
logbook signed by geocachers,and a post to the geocache
site "correcting" the erroneous co-ordinates for the geocache.

Early on I emailed the placer and explained all about letterboxing
and asked for her help in keeping my box going. She was a delight!
She added links on her clue page to the LBNA site, and also to my
Green Cathedral clues. She asked geocachers to put everything back
the way they found it, then she posted detailed spoiler photos
showing geocachers WHAT they were looking for and WHERE to find it.
Each time my letterbox needed attention, it was a geocacher who
tracked me down and let me know.

If it turns out that I lose the stamp I'll call my geocaching
buddy, and maybe together we can track it down. The other option
I'm considering is to combine the LB and geocache into a 'hybrid'
and post clues on both sites. But, so far so good. I think that
anyone who goes to all the work of planting a treasure in the woods
understands your concerns. And, if they know there's a letterbox
hiding nearby, they too can be that example of peaceful coexistence
that will only make both pursuits more fun.

colls



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Team Safari"
wrote:
> UPDATE NOTE: MOVED There has been a geocache planted nearby. I
don't think that the placer had any idea a letterbox is here. So
far, my letterbox (DD) has not been disrespected. I have not had my
box disturbed by cachers but it has been mentioned in their logs, so
I'm afraid it might just be a matter of time before someone takes
the stamp or trashes the box. Sad to say, but seems the way things
are going. Just a few people can make a lot look bad. I cache also,
and want to be respectful of responsible cachers and boxers alike.
If you want to sign in to the cache, please don't mention this
mystery box's name or new location, and set a nice example of
peaceful coexistence.
>
> I won't post the name or waypoint of the geocache box, because you
can figure that all out for yourself if you have "decyphered" my
clues.
>
> THANKS!
>
> Mary of Team Safari
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fantastic! :)

Peaceful co-existence. Working harmoniously. Educating
geocachers about what letterboxes are by allying with
the cache hider. Thanks for posting this Colleen, what
an excellent example of a letterboxer and geocacher
working in partnership. Kudos.

R of JARS


--- Colleen wrote:
---------------------------------
Hi Mary--

This is what worked for me: My Green Cathedral LB has
been in place
since last November. Early this summer a ammo can
geocache
appeared, just one tree away. We've had trade items
left in the LB,
logbook signed by geocachers,and a post to the
geocache
site "correcting" the erroneous co-ordinates for the
geocache.

Early on I emailed the placer and explained all about
letterboxing
and asked for her help in keeping my box going. She
was a delight!
She added links on her clue page to the LBNA site,
and also to my
Green Cathedral clues. She asked geocachers to put
everything back
the way they found it, then she posted detailed
spoiler photos
showing geocachers WHAT they were looking for and
WHERE to find it.
Each time my letterbox needed attention, it was a
geocacher who
tracked me down and let me know.

If it turns out that I lose the stamp I'll call my
geocaching
buddy, and maybe together we can track it down. The
other option
I'm considering is to combine the LB and geocache into
a 'hybrid'
and post clues on both sites. But, so far so good. I
think that
anyone who goes to all the work of planting a treasure
in the woods
understands your concerns. And, if they know there's
a letterbox
hiding nearby, they too can be that example of
peaceful coexistence
that will only make both pursuits more fun.

colls



--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Team Safari"
wrote:
> UPDATE NOTE: MOVED There has been a geocache planted
nearby. I
don't think that the placer had any idea a letterbox
is here. So
far, my letterbox (DD) has not been disrespected. I
have not had my
box disturbed by cachers but it has been mentioned in
their logs, so
I'm afraid it might just be a matter of time before
someone takes
the stamp or trashes the box. Sad to say, but seems
the way things
are going. Just a few people can make a lot look bad.
I cache also,
and want to be respectful of responsible cachers and
boxers alike.
If you want to sign in to the cache, please don't
mention this
mystery box's name or new location, and set a nice
example of
peaceful coexistence.
>
> I won't post the name or waypoint of the geocache
box, because you
can figure that all out for yourself if you have
"decyphered" my
clues.
>
> THANKS!
>
> Mary of Team Safari
>
>






__________________________________________________________
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